Dating Derf......
Yes, it is true, I never use real names on here, but in this case, I could not resist-the blog is blocked to the public anyway.
I met a guy named Derf on POF. We had a lot of common interests in tv shows, movies, etc. I enjoyed chatting with him, texting him and even talking on the phone. So we meet in person-what can I say-he looks exactly like you would expect a Derf to look. He wore ill fitting sloppy clothes, he had coke bottle glasses that were-Sally Jessy Raphael red-yes a man in red glasses. He was not very attractive, but he really could have done A LOT to maximize his potential-he clearly did not care. I do not think I have ever met anyone on a first meeting who clearly did not care at all about what they wore or the image they presented. He was nice and normally I really do not care about that kind of stuff-but it was really bad. He liked me alot but I really was not attracted to him. I gave it 3 dates to see if it would develop-because we had so many common interests-but alas no.
We are friends on facebook and he posts these like public notes about the knowledge he has gained dating. The funny part he makes himself out to be this cool guy who has learned so much from dating. The truth is his posts come across as bitter and angry-he mostly refers to woman wanting him as a friend so they have something to do if the person they want to date does not call them, or using him for money or whatever. Clearly he has had a bad experience-haven't we all?-but he portrays woman as users and to be honest I found it quite offensive. I told him so during our 3 short dates, but shortly after we stopped dating he posts this public service announcement about datinga nd nice guys finishing last. I really thought he might appreciate an honest reason he arrived in the dreaded friend zone-but alas it was not to be.
This is his post:
Yes, it is true, I never use real names on here, but in this case, I could not resist-the blog is blocked to the public anyway.
I met a guy named Derf on POF. We had a lot of common interests in tv shows, movies, etc. I enjoyed chatting with him, texting him and even talking on the phone. So we meet in person-what can I say-he looks exactly like you would expect a Derf to look. He wore ill fitting sloppy clothes, he had coke bottle glasses that were-Sally Jessy Raphael red-yes a man in red glasses. He was not very attractive, but he really could have done A LOT to maximize his potential-he clearly did not care. I do not think I have ever met anyone on a first meeting who clearly did not care at all about what they wore or the image they presented. He was nice and normally I really do not care about that kind of stuff-but it was really bad. He liked me alot but I really was not attracted to him. I gave it 3 dates to see if it would develop-because we had so many common interests-but alas no.
We are friends on facebook and he posts these like public notes about the knowledge he has gained dating. The funny part he makes himself out to be this cool guy who has learned so much from dating. The truth is his posts come across as bitter and angry-he mostly refers to woman wanting him as a friend so they have something to do if the person they want to date does not call them, or using him for money or whatever. Clearly he has had a bad experience-haven't we all?-but he portrays woman as users and to be honest I found it quite offensive. I told him so during our 3 short dates, but shortly after we stopped dating he posts this public service announcement about datinga nd nice guys finishing last. I really thought he might appreciate an honest reason he arrived in the dreaded friend zone-but alas it was not to be.
This is his post:
Being the sappy Mr. Nice guy is the wrong path..heh...
Mating Rituals III - For The Guys
So, love is a game. What's new?
And please, please don't give me that "It's not a game! You just have to be yourself" bullshit. Because there are plenty of nice guys at home alone right now because they don't know how to play the game. It's sad, really.
***The same is true for nice girls and in his case he is not sitting at home because he is so nice. The reasons he is at home is in my post to him to follow this.
I have learned the game. The hard way. Trial by fire and what not. And hoo-boy, was there a lot of fire. But I'm afraid that my past experiences, coupled with my thorough understanding of the system...have lead me to despite it to its very core. Really. I think its silly and stupid. This attitude will keep me single, but I can't seem to care.
***Background-this is a 32 yr old highly educated (2 masters degrees in math and computer science), who teaches and my personal fave-lives at home with his mother, his cell phone is even in her name-loser!
However, instead of let all this wonderful knowledge go to waste, I have decided to pass it on. Because I know what a lot of you guys are going through. And I'd like to save you from it, if I can. It's hell, that I wish upon no man. Plus, it would be a shame to let all this stuff just go to waste. So now, I present to you, lonely guys across the world, a simple look into the intracies of the dating game.
***Now, admittedly he can not manage to keep a woman but his knowledge is going to help who?
Think of it as a spectrum...
"Nice Guy"|----------------------------------|Middle Ground|----------------------------------|"Jerk"
The ends of the spectrum are the extreme. On one end, you have the nice guy. Sweet, charming, loveable...but highly dependent, lacks self-confidence, highly insecure, etc. Basically, whipped. On the other end, you have the jerk...rude, selfish, outspoken, but also confident, secure, and very independent. It is those last three qualities (confidence, self-security, independence) that women are most attracted to.
***Says a single man. I would never think of nice guys as "highly dependent, lacking self-confidence & highly insecure"-clearly he is speaking of himself. It has been my experience that the rude, selfish jerk is usually just as insecure if not more so.
It's important to note how women react to the spectrum. Women are emotionally attracted to the nice guys. These are the guys who they'll come to for emotional support - they'll be open and honest with them, and even expose their secrets and what not. But women are physically attracted to the other end - the extreme right, the jerk end. It's not that they like jerks specifically, just the qualities they possess by nature (strength, security, independence...).
***Really? Because he has been a woman for how long? What physical characteristics do jerks have that women would be attracted to? Jerks, like everyone else come in all shapes, sizes, colors and levels of attractiveness.
So what do women want? Ideally, they want a guy who falls in the middle ground - is nice, sweet, caring, but also is confident, independent, etc. When women say "Nice guys are hard to find", they are talking about the middle ground guys, who admittedly are a bit rarer than your average nice guy/jerk.
***Again, his vast knowledge of women gained how? If he knew what women wanted he would give it to them not be a lonely dependent, emotionally immature lonely guy.
Oftentimes, if they can't find that middle ground guy, they'll work on averages...get their physical needs from the extreme right, their emotional from the extreme left, and that will give her a middle ground of sorts. Or, women will start from the extreme right, the jerk end, and then try to bring the guy down to middle ground by "changing" him. They start on that end because that is what is attractive to them.
***This is what pissed me off. So basically women are whores-what an asshole!
How do I get to middle ground?
Middle ground all depends on you. If you're one of those guys who is chronically lonely, and you think having a girlfriend will make you happy, guess what? You're an "extreme left" nice guy. You are emotional support only. The funny thing about this system is that if you truly and honestly don't care about having a girlfriend, then you will be in a good position to get one. Its like a catch-22. You have to be happy with yourself above all else - you absolutely positively cannot rely or depend on someone else to bring you happiness. Once you have the self-security, the confidence will follow, and you will be the type of person you need to be, relationship be damned.
***I can feel his frustration in this paragraph. Clearly he is not where he wants to be emotionally. However, I think you can be completely self-reliant without the not giving a shit about a relationship. It is important to be know yourself and be comfortable with and by yourself, but it is equally important to realize what you have to offer to a relationship and what you can get out of it. Not giving a damn is not a good place to start.
You just need to realize that the only person that can truly make you happy...is you.
***Not quite the case-the only place you can find true happiness is within yourself. If you can not find it within you will never find it without.
Personally, I have faith in nobody...people are unreliable and overrated.
***Bitter much?
That probably puts me closer to the extreme right. But, a lot more women notice me now than when I was extreme left.
***Notice how?
I don't even need or want them!
***LOL, you wish!
Back to the catch-22.
I think I'm a middle ground kind of guy. But I still fall in the Friend Zone™. Why?
***Clearly this is the real reason for this post, what is really bothering him and making him bitter and angry.
If you are middle ground, but you exhibit too many nice guy qualities, you will send nice guy signals to her, and she'll nudge you over to the extreme left. So, you'd be there emotionally, but never physically. Friend Zone. Basically, if you are in the middle ground, you need to showcase more jerk signals than nice guy signals. Is there too much of an extreme right? I honestly don't know. I flat out told one girl that I hated relationships and all women were evil, and that made her want me more. Go fig.
***I find this HIGHLY unlikely and suspect, because what would be the point of meeting someone online to date them and telling them that all women are evil and you hate relationships?
But, if you're wondering what some of those signals are that will push you more to the extreme left than to the right, here are...
Common Mistakes Guys Make in Pursuit of Girls
***Unfortunately these are not the mistakes he is making.
You say: "I'd like to be involved in a serious relationship right now/I'm looking for that special someone."
You think: You are communicating your maturity and your readiness for a relationship. You are telling her that you are prime for the taking.
She thinks: You are dependent and insecure. You need a girlfriend in order to be happy. She will be the sun to your universe - if she doesn't have time for you, or just doesn't want to see you on a particular occasion, it'll crush your world. And no one wants to have that kind of person around them.
What you should do: Don't say you want to be in a relationship. The attitude you should carry is "If it happens, fine. If it doesn't, fine. I don't care either way." This shows her that you are independent and secure with yourself. This is attractive to her.
You say: "I'm really lonely right now/women just don't find me attractive for some reason."
You think: You can get some sympathy from her, and that's a warm feeling, right? Plus, you're showing her that being an "undiscovered jewel" so to speak, she won't have any competition in nabbing you for herself.
She thinks: If other women don't like you, why should she? Plus, sympathy is a nice emotion...but the root of sympathy is pathetic, and pathetic is not attractive. Pathetic gets you in the FZ in no time flat.
What you should do: You should lead a healthy social life. Or at least, appear to. By all means, do NOT talk about your exploits with other women around her. That's a big no-no. But you should have other friends that you do things with. If she's going to be all you've got, again, that's waaaaay too much burden for her to bear.
***In the time we talked he never mentioned a friend, not a single one. He did show me pictures of his family, his school, his class room, the path he liked to walk on, but not a single friend. All he ever talked about doing were working, going to the movies or out to eat with his mom and playing video games-it was almost like he was a teenager.
She says: "I don't think I'm as pretty as other girls/I look terrible today/I'm not that attractive" or some other such statement designed to fish for a compliment.
You say: "What? You are very pretty/you always look good/you are very attractive" ...basically, giving her the compliment she was fishing for.
You think: You're making her feel good, and communicating your interest by showing how highly you think of her.
She thinks: How nice. What a good friend. See the problem? Now she knows that she has your approval, and doesn't have to work for it. Plus, anytime she doubts herself she can come to you for instant support.
What you should do: You can compliment her...but only when its warranted. If you go out to a fancy restaurant and she's dressed up, tell her how beautiful she looks. Once. Don't overdo it - if you run into her, and she's wearing a sweater and her pajama bottoms, don't tell her how beautiful she looks. Again, you're not here for emotional support. Not yet. Emotional support leads straight to the FZ.
***How ironic that he would feel like judging how someone dressed given his clothing choices.
"I Just Want to Make Her Happy" - Weak Wallet Syndrome - You constantly buy her things...from lunch/movie, dinner, maybe she sees a stuffed animal she thinks is cute, and you bust out your wallet and buy it.
You think: You are making her happy, and showing what a stand-up guy you are.
She thinks: You are so insecure, you have to buy people's approval. Which, if you think about it, is kind of true.
What you should do: Keep your wallet in check. You can do that kind of thing maybe once in a while, but make it rare. You shouldn't give off the vibe that you have to buy her approval...she should like you for who you are, $$ is irrevalent. If she sees something she likes, don't buy it on the spot for her. Come back later, buy it, and give it to her after some time has passed. She will be impressed by your thoughtfulness, and even more impressed that you remembered. If you buy it on the spot, not only does it not have that great effect, but it might put you in the FZ/just weird her out.
***He mentions money in a lot of his posts, I suspect he has tried to buy love and it has not worked out for him and made him bitter. Contrary to popular belief woman have jobs and earn a living. Here I am a single mom with no child support-I own a house and he lives at home with his mom-but woman are after him for his money-sigh.
"I Just Want to Make Her Happy" 2 - Sucker Syndrome - You are doing her favors. Especially ones where you have to go out of your way. You help her study for a class you're not even taking. You give her a ride, when it's in the opposite direction. You help her set up her computer, which takes hours out of your day. ...You get the idea.
You think: You're showing your committment to her through all these nice things. And again, what a nice guy you are.
She thinks: Just like buying her stuff, except now with time and effort instead of money.
What you should do: Again, you shouldn't be trying to buy her approval. She should like you for your own merits, not what you do for her. You can do her a favor occasionally, but make sure it's on a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" basis - you expect her to return the favor at some point. For example, you buy her lunch one day, and make sure to mention that now she owes you lunch at some point in the future. And hell, collect that free lunch. You get the idea. Again, this shows your independence and confidence in yourself. If she were to become interested in you, it would be an equal relationship, not just you always trying to please her. Being pampered might be fun as a novelty for a while, but no woman wants that - she wants a partner, not a worshipper.
***I feel for him here, I have been in an unequal relationship before and it is it's own special pain. What he fails to realize is EVERYONE no matter how pretty, rich, cool, studly, jerk, etc-we have ALL been in relationships where we loved someone who did not love and value us back.
Over-committment to Her...ie Flake Syndrome - She asks what you're doing tonight. You tell her that you have plans with some of your other friends. Disappointed, she tells you she asked because she was hoping you two could do something. You offer to break your plans with your friends so you can go out with her.
You think: You get an opportunity to spend some time with her, and that's not bad, right? Plus, you're showing her how important she is to you.
She thinks: You're way too dependent. She wants her boyfriend to be a part of her life, not her life. You should be an addition, not a takeover. She wants to be able to go out with her friends without you if she wants, and to have time alone now and then. If you're breaking plans with your friends for her, then you'll expect the same from her, and she's not sure she wants to do that. Plus, if you can break your plans with your friends, how long until you're breaking your plans with her?
What you should do: Mirror her disappointment that you two couldn't go out tonight, but make plans for another night. Then and there. Something definite. Get a day at the very least - "What about next Saturday?" If she's interested in you, she will find a way to meet you in the middle.
***I think not losing sight of yourself, your needs and your wants is important.
Conversely, don't give too much preference to your friends. If she runs into you and your friends somewhere, don't be cold to her. Smile, be friendly, and tell her you'll call later. You don't want to drop your friends completely for her, so keep it brief and deal with her on your own time.
***Again, he is 32, not 23?
Deference of Choice - You two make plans. You ask her "Where do you want to go for dinner/what kind of movie do you want to see?" etc... She hits you with the female Old Reliable™, "I don't know." You then start trying to figure out what she wants, by giving her options, trying to get her to pick something.
You think: You are being sensitive to her needs by giving her preference, trying to determine what she wants.
She thinks: You are indecisive and slow to action. Not attractive.
What you should do: Offer her a choice initially, sure. After she hits you with "I don't know" (I reeeeeeeeally hate that, BTW), already have something in mind. Pick it. "Well then, I've always wanted to try so-and-so/I really like this, lets...." Make a decision. If she doesn't like it, she'll let you know. If she doesn't, then that's her fault for not saying anything. But either way, she'll admire your decisiveness. If you are asking her out, try to have several choices already in mind...if you ask her to dinner, have at least 3-4 restaurants ready to go...recommend the first, and if she objects, keep going until you get to one she doesn't have a problem with.
***Actualy, I thought he was pushy. Finally, I just gave in since he was such a huge pain in the ass. I did not want to see a movie and he kept pushing, we saw the damn movie and he talked through the whole thing.
Too Much Too Fast - You really like this girl. You can't stop thinking about her...and you just met her yesterday! You call everyday, or every other day. You call her immediately after dates. You want to see her as often as possible. You're already gushing about how great she is. And so on...
You think: You're showing her how much you like her, thus opening the gates for a potential relationship.
She thinks: Back off partner. You're getting Kathy Bates "Misery" weird. She doesn't want you to consume her life. Plus, you're very dependent, and she will be the pillar of support you depend on. Nobody wants to carry around that weight.
What you should do: Remember that as a potential future boyfriend, you would supplement her life, not take it over. Start small. Especially initially, you should always let a few days pass before making contact again. If you go out on a date on a Saturday, call her again on Monday or Tuesday (personally, I'd go Tuesday). Don't be so thrilled about her - you two barely know each other! Show her that you're interested, but you still need to know more about her before you get head over heels. Coming around too much can really ruin things...I saw this one guy completely destroy his chances with this girl because he text messaged her every day, sometimes 2-3 times a day. She was really interested too, but after that it was just too much and she hit him with "let's just be friends." Poor **stard.
***Sadly this is me he is talking about. I am sorry his feelings were hurt, but it is not for the reasons he thinks. He SO did not wait to ask me out again, before our first date was over he was already trying to make plans for the next one and texting me none stop!
"Issues" - You're getting comfortable with this girl. You like her a lot. Subsequently, you decide to open up with her. Start sharing about your thoughts and feelings. Tell her about all the things that's going on in your life. And she does the same, trusting you with "secrets" and always saying how comfortable she is around you.
You think: You two are growing closer...so the relationship must be around the corner.
She thinks: "Yay! Emotional support! A friend! Now I need to go find some jerk to ****."
***Again all woman are whores, sigh.
What you should do: Do NOT let the issues start to come out while dating. Keep your blasted mouth shut, even if she starts to pry. If she starts talking about her own, head that shit off at the pass. Issues are for much later, when the relationship has been established and solidified. If you let the issues come out now, yeah, you'll grow closer, but in that whole emotional support context. She will not be attracted to you. You will own the Friend Zone. Dates are simply for having fun and getting to know each other better.
Following the super nice guy path too early will get you Lion-ized (0 for foreva). Remember that....
Ok so after much thought I decide to tel him the real reason he fals into the friend zone-because really it is not for ANY of the reasons he thinks. He had told me he thinks every experience is meant to be and important to learn from. I will also admit that his post pissed me off, but I did try to phrase it as kindly as possible.
Here is what I wrote to him-privately not posting on his page for others to see:
First, I really liked you as a friend we had a lot in common. However, I have to admit that I found your public service announcement on dating tired and somewhat offensive.
So, love is a game. What's new?
And please, please don't give me that "It's not a game! You just have to be yourself" bullshit. Because there are plenty of nice guys at home alone right now because they don't know how to play the game. It's sad, really.
***The same is true for nice girls and in his case he is not sitting at home because he is so nice. The reasons he is at home is in my post to him to follow this.
I have learned the game. The hard way. Trial by fire and what not. And hoo-boy, was there a lot of fire. But I'm afraid that my past experiences, coupled with my thorough understanding of the system...have lead me to despite it to its very core. Really. I think its silly and stupid. This attitude will keep me single, but I can't seem to care.
***Background-this is a 32 yr old highly educated (2 masters degrees in math and computer science), who teaches and my personal fave-lives at home with his mother, his cell phone is even in her name-loser!
However, instead of let all this wonderful knowledge go to waste, I have decided to pass it on. Because I know what a lot of you guys are going through. And I'd like to save you from it, if I can. It's hell, that I wish upon no man. Plus, it would be a shame to let all this stuff just go to waste. So now, I present to you, lonely guys across the world, a simple look into the intracies of the dating game.
***Now, admittedly he can not manage to keep a woman but his knowledge is going to help who?
Think of it as a spectrum...
"Nice Guy"|---------------------
The ends of the spectrum are the extreme. On one end, you have the nice guy. Sweet, charming, loveable...but highly dependent, lacks self-confidence, highly insecure, etc. Basically, whipped. On the other end, you have the jerk...rude, selfish, outspoken, but also confident, secure, and very independent. It is those last three qualities (confidence, self-security, independence) that women are most attracted to.
***Says a single man. I would never think of nice guys as "highly dependent, lacking self-confidence & highly insecure"-clearly he is speaking of himself. It has been my experience that the rude, selfish jerk is usually just as insecure if not more so.
It's important to note how women react to the spectrum. Women are emotionally attracted to the nice guys. These are the guys who they'll come to for emotional support - they'll be open and honest with them, and even expose their secrets and what not. But women are physically attracted to the other end - the extreme right, the jerk end. It's not that they like jerks specifically, just the qualities they possess by nature (strength, security, independence...).
***Really? Because he has been a woman for how long? What physical characteristics do jerks have that women would be attracted to? Jerks, like everyone else come in all shapes, sizes, colors and levels of attractiveness.
So what do women want? Ideally, they want a guy who falls in the middle ground - is nice, sweet, caring, but also is confident, independent, etc. When women say "Nice guys are hard to find", they are talking about the middle ground guys, who admittedly are a bit rarer than your average nice guy/jerk.
***Again, his vast knowledge of women gained how? If he knew what women wanted he would give it to them not be a lonely dependent, emotionally immature lonely guy.
Oftentimes, if they can't find that middle ground guy, they'll work on averages...get their physical needs from the extreme right, their emotional from the extreme left, and that will give her a middle ground of sorts. Or, women will start from the extreme right, the jerk end, and then try to bring the guy down to middle ground by "changing" him. They start on that end because that is what is attractive to them.
***This is what pissed me off. So basically women are whores-what an asshole!
How do I get to middle ground?
Middle ground all depends on you. If you're one of those guys who is chronically lonely, and you think having a girlfriend will make you happy, guess what? You're an "extreme left" nice guy. You are emotional support only. The funny thing about this system is that if you truly and honestly don't care about having a girlfriend, then you will be in a good position to get one. Its like a catch-22. You have to be happy with yourself above all else - you absolutely positively cannot rely or depend on someone else to bring you happiness. Once you have the self-security, the confidence will follow, and you will be the type of person you need to be, relationship be damned.
***I can feel his frustration in this paragraph. Clearly he is not where he wants to be emotionally. However, I think you can be completely self-reliant without the not giving a shit about a relationship. It is important to be know yourself and be comfortable with and by yourself, but it is equally important to realize what you have to offer to a relationship and what you can get out of it. Not giving a damn is not a good place to start.
You just need to realize that the only person that can truly make you happy...is you.
***Not quite the case-the only place you can find true happiness is within yourself. If you can not find it within you will never find it without.
Personally, I have faith in nobody...people are unreliable and overrated.
***Bitter much?
That probably puts me closer to the extreme right. But, a lot more women notice me now than when I was extreme left.
***Notice how?
I don't even need or want them!
***LOL, you wish!
Back to the catch-22.
I think I'm a middle ground kind of guy. But I still fall in the Friend Zone™. Why?
***Clearly this is the real reason for this post, what is really bothering him and making him bitter and angry.
If you are middle ground, but you exhibit too many nice guy qualities, you will send nice guy signals to her, and she'll nudge you over to the extreme left. So, you'd be there emotionally, but never physically. Friend Zone. Basically, if you are in the middle ground, you need to showcase more jerk signals than nice guy signals. Is there too much of an extreme right? I honestly don't know. I flat out told one girl that I hated relationships and all women were evil, and that made her want me more. Go fig.
***I find this HIGHLY unlikely and suspect, because what would be the point of meeting someone online to date them and telling them that all women are evil and you hate relationships?
But, if you're wondering what some of those signals are that will push you more to the extreme left than to the right, here are...
Common Mistakes Guys Make in Pursuit of Girls
***Unfortunately these are not the mistakes he is making.
You say: "I'd like to be involved in a serious relationship right now/I'm looking for that special someone."
You think: You are communicating your maturity and your readiness for a relationship. You are telling her that you are prime for the taking.
She thinks: You are dependent and insecure. You need a girlfriend in order to be happy. She will be the sun to your universe - if she doesn't have time for you, or just doesn't want to see you on a particular occasion, it'll crush your world. And no one wants to have that kind of person around them.
What you should do: Don't say you want to be in a relationship. The attitude you should carry is "If it happens, fine. If it doesn't, fine. I don't care either way." This shows her that you are independent and secure with yourself. This is attractive to her.
You say: "I'm really lonely right now/women just don't find me attractive for some reason."
You think: You can get some sympathy from her, and that's a warm feeling, right? Plus, you're showing her that being an "undiscovered jewel" so to speak, she won't have any competition in nabbing you for herself.
She thinks: If other women don't like you, why should she? Plus, sympathy is a nice emotion...but the root of sympathy is pathetic, and pathetic is not attractive. Pathetic gets you in the FZ in no time flat.
What you should do: You should lead a healthy social life. Or at least, appear to. By all means, do NOT talk about your exploits with other women around her. That's a big no-no. But you should have other friends that you do things with. If she's going to be all you've got, again, that's waaaaay too much burden for her to bear.
***In the time we talked he never mentioned a friend, not a single one. He did show me pictures of his family, his school, his class room, the path he liked to walk on, but not a single friend. All he ever talked about doing were working, going to the movies or out to eat with his mom and playing video games-it was almost like he was a teenager.
She says: "I don't think I'm as pretty as other girls/I look terrible today/I'm not that attractive" or some other such statement designed to fish for a compliment.
You say: "What? You are very pretty/you always look good/you are very attractive" ...basically, giving her the compliment she was fishing for.
You think: You're making her feel good, and communicating your interest by showing how highly you think of her.
She thinks: How nice. What a good friend. See the problem? Now she knows that she has your approval, and doesn't have to work for it. Plus, anytime she doubts herself she can come to you for instant support.
What you should do: You can compliment her...but only when its warranted. If you go out to a fancy restaurant and she's dressed up, tell her how beautiful she looks. Once. Don't overdo it - if you run into her, and she's wearing a sweater and her pajama bottoms, don't tell her how beautiful she looks. Again, you're not here for emotional support. Not yet. Emotional support leads straight to the FZ.
***How ironic that he would feel like judging how someone dressed given his clothing choices.
"I Just Want to Make Her Happy" - Weak Wallet Syndrome - You constantly buy her things...from lunch/movie, dinner, maybe she sees a stuffed animal she thinks is cute, and you bust out your wallet and buy it.
You think: You are making her happy, and showing what a stand-up guy you are.
She thinks: You are so insecure, you have to buy people's approval. Which, if you think about it, is kind of true.
What you should do: Keep your wallet in check. You can do that kind of thing maybe once in a while, but make it rare. You shouldn't give off the vibe that you have to buy her approval...she should like you for who you are, $$ is irrevalent. If she sees something she likes, don't buy it on the spot for her. Come back later, buy it, and give it to her after some time has passed. She will be impressed by your thoughtfulness, and even more impressed that you remembered. If you buy it on the spot, not only does it not have that great effect, but it might put you in the FZ/just weird her out.
***He mentions money in a lot of his posts, I suspect he has tried to buy love and it has not worked out for him and made him bitter. Contrary to popular belief woman have jobs and earn a living. Here I am a single mom with no child support-I own a house and he lives at home with his mom-but woman are after him for his money-sigh.
"I Just Want to Make Her Happy" 2 - Sucker Syndrome - You are doing her favors. Especially ones where you have to go out of your way. You help her study for a class you're not even taking. You give her a ride, when it's in the opposite direction. You help her set up her computer, which takes hours out of your day. ...You get the idea.
You think: You're showing your committment to her through all these nice things. And again, what a nice guy you are.
She thinks: Just like buying her stuff, except now with time and effort instead of money.
What you should do: Again, you shouldn't be trying to buy her approval. She should like you for your own merits, not what you do for her. You can do her a favor occasionally, but make sure it's on a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" basis - you expect her to return the favor at some point. For example, you buy her lunch one day, and make sure to mention that now she owes you lunch at some point in the future. And hell, collect that free lunch. You get the idea. Again, this shows your independence and confidence in yourself. If she were to become interested in you, it would be an equal relationship, not just you always trying to please her. Being pampered might be fun as a novelty for a while, but no woman wants that - she wants a partner, not a worshipper.
***I feel for him here, I have been in an unequal relationship before and it is it's own special pain. What he fails to realize is EVERYONE no matter how pretty, rich, cool, studly, jerk, etc-we have ALL been in relationships where we loved someone who did not love and value us back.
Over-committment to Her...ie Flake Syndrome - She asks what you're doing tonight. You tell her that you have plans with some of your other friends. Disappointed, she tells you she asked because she was hoping you two could do something. You offer to break your plans with your friends so you can go out with her.
You think: You get an opportunity to spend some time with her, and that's not bad, right? Plus, you're showing her how important she is to you.
She thinks: You're way too dependent. She wants her boyfriend to be a part of her life, not her life. You should be an addition, not a takeover. She wants to be able to go out with her friends without you if she wants, and to have time alone now and then. If you're breaking plans with your friends for her, then you'll expect the same from her, and she's not sure she wants to do that. Plus, if you can break your plans with your friends, how long until you're breaking your plans with her?
What you should do: Mirror her disappointment that you two couldn't go out tonight, but make plans for another night. Then and there. Something definite. Get a day at the very least - "What about next Saturday?" If she's interested in you, she will find a way to meet you in the middle.
***I think not losing sight of yourself, your needs and your wants is important.
Conversely, don't give too much preference to your friends. If she runs into you and your friends somewhere, don't be cold to her. Smile, be friendly, and tell her you'll call later. You don't want to drop your friends completely for her, so keep it brief and deal with her on your own time.
***Again, he is 32, not 23?
Deference of Choice - You two make plans. You ask her "Where do you want to go for dinner/what kind of movie do you want to see?" etc... She hits you with the female Old Reliable™, "I don't know." You then start trying to figure out what she wants, by giving her options, trying to get her to pick something.
You think: You are being sensitive to her needs by giving her preference, trying to determine what she wants.
She thinks: You are indecisive and slow to action. Not attractive.
What you should do: Offer her a choice initially, sure. After she hits you with "I don't know" (I reeeeeeeeally hate that, BTW), already have something in mind. Pick it. "Well then, I've always wanted to try so-and-so/I really like this, lets...." Make a decision. If she doesn't like it, she'll let you know. If she doesn't, then that's her fault for not saying anything. But either way, she'll admire your decisiveness. If you are asking her out, try to have several choices already in mind...if you ask her to dinner, have at least 3-4 restaurants ready to go...recommend the first, and if she objects, keep going until you get to one she doesn't have a problem with.
***Actualy, I thought he was pushy. Finally, I just gave in since he was such a huge pain in the ass. I did not want to see a movie and he kept pushing, we saw the damn movie and he talked through the whole thing.
Too Much Too Fast - You really like this girl. You can't stop thinking about her...and you just met her yesterday! You call everyday, or every other day. You call her immediately after dates. You want to see her as often as possible. You're already gushing about how great she is. And so on...
You think: You're showing her how much you like her, thus opening the gates for a potential relationship.
She thinks: Back off partner. You're getting Kathy Bates "Misery" weird. She doesn't want you to consume her life. Plus, you're very dependent, and she will be the pillar of support you depend on. Nobody wants to carry around that weight.
What you should do: Remember that as a potential future boyfriend, you would supplement her life, not take it over. Start small. Especially initially, you should always let a few days pass before making contact again. If you go out on a date on a Saturday, call her again on Monday or Tuesday (personally, I'd go Tuesday). Don't be so thrilled about her - you two barely know each other! Show her that you're interested, but you still need to know more about her before you get head over heels. Coming around too much can really ruin things...I saw this one guy completely destroy his chances with this girl because he text messaged her every day, sometimes 2-3 times a day. She was really interested too, but after that it was just too much and she hit him with "let's just be friends." Poor **stard.
***Sadly this is me he is talking about. I am sorry his feelings were hurt, but it is not for the reasons he thinks. He SO did not wait to ask me out again, before our first date was over he was already trying to make plans for the next one and texting me none stop!
"Issues" - You're getting comfortable with this girl. You like her a lot. Subsequently, you decide to open up with her. Start sharing about your thoughts and feelings. Tell her about all the things that's going on in your life. And she does the same, trusting you with "secrets" and always saying how comfortable she is around you.
You think: You two are growing closer...so the relationship must be around the corner.
She thinks: "Yay! Emotional support! A friend! Now I need to go find some jerk to ****."
***Again all woman are whores, sigh.
What you should do: Do NOT let the issues start to come out while dating. Keep your blasted mouth shut, even if she starts to pry. If she starts talking about her own, head that shit off at the pass. Issues are for much later, when the relationship has been established and solidified. If you let the issues come out now, yeah, you'll grow closer, but in that whole emotional support context. She will not be attracted to you. You will own the Friend Zone. Dates are simply for having fun and getting to know each other better.
Following the super nice guy path too early will get you Lion-ized (0 for foreva). Remember that....
Ok so after much thought I decide to tel him the real reason he fals into the friend zone-because really it is not for ANY of the reasons he thinks. He had told me he thinks every experience is meant to be and important to learn from. I will also admit that his post pissed me off, but I did try to phrase it as kindly as possible.
Here is what I wrote to him-privately not posting on his page for others to see:
The Dreaded FZ-Comments and Suggestions
First, I really liked you as a friend we had a lot in common. However, I have to admit that I found your public service announcement on dating tired and somewhat offensive.
posted by Laileanah at 6:21 PM
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